The Missing Link in Your Hunger Control with Heather Leidy

James Hill:

Welcome to Weight Loss And, where we delve into the world of weight loss. I'm Jim Hill.

Holly Wyatt:

And I'm Holly Wyatt. We're both dedicated to helping you lose weight, keep it off, and live your best life while you're doing it.

James Hill:

Indeed, we now realize successful weight loss combines the science and art of medicine, knowing what to do and why you will do it.

Holly Wyatt:

Yes, the “And” allows us to talk about all the other stuff that makes your journey so much bigger, better, and exciting.

James Hill:

Ready for the “And” factor?

Holly Wyatt:

Let's dive in.

James Hill:

Here we go.

Holly Wyatt:

If you've spent more than about 10 minutes online, Jim, I don't know if you've been online lately, you've probably seen a headline telling you something about protein. Eat more protein, or you need this type of protein. Suddenly, protein is everywhere. It's on the food labels, It's an influencer's advice. We're seeing more high-protein snacks come out. And just in all the conversations about weight loss, people are talking about protein.

James Hill:

Yeah. You know, Holly, I do go online occasionally.

Holly Wyatt:

Really?

James Hill:

And I've actually, yeah, no, no, trust me. And I've seen the work on protein. It's everywhere. Oh, my gosh. People can't get enough of it. And, you know, it's really true of people that are taking these GLP-1-based medications. These drugs dramatically reduce appetite. And does that make it harder for people to get adequate nutrition or adequate protein? But beyond that, the bigger question is, what in the heck does protein do for our appetites, for our cravings, and for the ability to make good food choices in the long term?

Holly Wyatt:

And that's exactly where this conversation is going to go today, because I think a lot of people struggle with hunger. They hit weight loss plateaus. They find themselves snacking after a meal. I know I've done that. I've had a whole meal and I'm still there looking for something else. And protein might be a strategy that I think can help. So this episode is about using protein to feel full, to eat better, and to make weight management easier.

James Hill:

And guess what, Holly? We have the perfect guest to help us make sense of this. Dr. Heather Leidy is a nutritional physiologist and associate professor at the University of Texas at Austin. She really is one of the leading researchers in the area of how protein impacts satiety, eating behavior, and long-term weight control. She served on the 2020 Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee, which is a heroic effort, and her current research focuses on the power of protein at breakfast for appetite and glycemic control in young people.

Holly Wyatt:

So, Heather, welcome to the show. Let's start with the basics. When it comes to hunger and food intake, I guess, in general, what makes protein unique?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, so thanks for having me. It's great to have this discussion and I do agree that protein is just blowing up. I started doing this work 20 years ago, and I keep getting asked, is this ever going to die? And it doesn't seem that that's the case. It just keeps growing with more and more interest in that. Way back, I was trained as an ingested behavior expert. And so those are the things that we look at in terms of appetite and satiety, all those different components of hunger and fullness. And one of our first studies that have obviously been replicated in our lab and others, just having individuals eat a lot of protein or a little bit of protein or different macronutrients. And we do see that when you eat more protein in a meal, you do have this higher level of fullness, which we also call satiety. And you see this fairly significant decline in hunger. And those are the two cues that we really look at in terms of how that can affect subsequent eating behavior. And when you do the comparison, protein does seem to raise to the top in terms of which nutrient or which food component is the most satiating, reduces hunger the most. You do see that quite a bit.

James Hill:

So, Heather, the reduction in hunger and increase in satiety, does that follow through in terms of lower food intake with higher protein diets?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, great question. Surprisingly, we've been doing this for 20 years. And when you look at the clinical trials, the tightly controlled interventions where individuals come to the lab and we, you know, we feed them, whether it's breakfast that's varying in protein, and then you look at the next lunch meal, consistently, you just don't see that those and you'll see really robust responses with hunger and satiety. But then that next eating occasion, you don't really see a drop in food intake. For experimental design concerns, you have to think, okay, well, is lunch the most meaningful assessment of daily food intake, right? And so then it comes into, well, what if you look at the studies out there that assess daily food intake across the entire day? And that's where you start seeing differences. And I would say primarily snacking behavior is where you see protein can have that effect.

James Hill:

Ah, very interesting.

Holly Wyatt:

Yeah. So we talk about not one solution for anything when it comes to weight. And so do you notice that certain individuals might be more sensitive to the protein than others? You know, sometimes we study the whole group and there may be individuals in there that protein doesn't have that big effect. But there may be some individuals that really it's critical, maybe.

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, and that's a great point. I know, Jim, you have papers on that in terms of looking at responders and non-responders and whether it's exercise or nutrition. It really does come down to personalized nutrition. And we don't have the data to look, we don't have the data to know whether there are certain groups of individuals that respond differently to protein outside of the fact that we do know that people that habitually eat more protein on a daily basis will, if that's removed from the diet, they'll actually crave more protein than others. And so that's, you know, a little bit of differences there.

Heather Leidy:

But we completed a study years ago. If you're a researcher, you've done studies, they're like, wow, look, it was cool data. And I bring this up for the point, we had participants eat their protein first at the beginning of each meal, and then we gave them whatever food they wanted, you know, highly appealing, highly rewarding foods, knowing that protein is satiating, knowing it'll reduce hunger and they ate their protein. They felt great. And then they ate everything else. And so when we look at it, they ate a lot of food. And we asked them, and it was just because they weren't being mindful of, you know, this was an energy restriction trial, and they weren't being mindful of their food cues, of the energy restriction, of their goals. And I bring that out because I do think protein can be powerful as part of whether it is implementing physical activity, whether it is a behavioral strategy. I think protein alone can't give you what you want. It's not the be-all end-all, but I think it's a really good important component.

Holly Wyatt:

That makes perfect sense, though. So if you're trying to lose weight, if you're purposely trying to reduce your calories and you use protein, you may get a very different result than if you're not really have that goal and there's something that's sitting in front of you that looks good and you eat it. But if you're trying not to eat it, it might give you more of the ability to say, I'm not going to eat as much or I don't need it right now.

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, and I think that's why when we look at the weight maintenance studies, you do see that when individuals have lost weight and then you start implementing or adding more protein, their goal is to prevent weight regain. And you do see that protein effect along with others. And I didn't bring up fiber, but I think protein and fiber combinations are ideal for that.

James Hill:

I want to come back to the weight loss maintenance thing because I think that's really important. But I did want to say, Heather, I have a lot of sympathy for people who study food intake because it's so complex that you look at three factors over here and there are eight more over here that affect it. So this is the way science works and you can't control everything.

James Hill:

But good for you that you're out there trying to learn more about this. I know a lot of our listeners are thinking, how much protein should I be eating? Now, you've been on the Dietary Guidelines Committee, so you know about making recommendations for the public. So how much protein should people be eating? And does it matter if you're trying to lose weight, maintain weight, or maintain weight loss?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, I love the leading questions, right? When we go back to the Dietary Guidelines, right? I think the goal and every dietary guidelines have been the same way, it's promoting health and well-being. But you have to do it across all life stages. And a lot of times, until more recently, obesity or cardiovascular disease or none of those things were really examined. It was really, are there certain strategies that we should implement? And I think now, as we know, the obesity continues to be an epidemic in the U.S. around the world. That needs to be, I think, a target for that. And so the dietary guidelines has never really come out and said meal specific amounts of protein or just increased dietary protein. A lot of us protein researchers in the world, start talking about the terms of optimal protein. And the only reason we bring that term up is the RDA, the recommended dietary allowance, is the minimum amount of protein that you need to prevent deficiencies. And that's the dietary guideline recommendations, right? And so we're meeting that in the U.S., but we know now based on research that, should you have more, whether it's for sports performance or aging or in this case for weight loss or weight maintenance, what does the evidence show? And at this point, the dietary guidelines haven't reviewed that. So you go back to many meta-analysis now, I think there's probably 15 total that came out in the last three or four years looking at protein, increased dietary protein on different health outcomes. A lot of it's related to muscle, but a lot is weight loss or weight maintenance. And you consistently see recommendations that indicate more protein. Almost twice as much protein is what the minimum is. I don't know if we want to talk specific numbers, but we can. And so I would say most of the work out there is about 1.2 to 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day.

And that's pretty consistent with most of those, whether it's weight loss or weight maintenance trials. Jim, to your point, in terms of is there a difference depending on when it's during weight loss or weight maintenance, I would say that range kind of flips. That if it's weight loss, typically the higher amount up to 1.6. If it's weight maintenance, about 1.2. You can go on the lower end of that range, and that's what we fairly consistently see. And then more recently, we started thinking about, well, are there meal specific quantities? And so I'll pause there. I don't know if we want to go into that as well, but that's the other piece.

James Hill:

No, this is great. Just for people like me that think differently, I think in terms of percent of protein, carb and fat in the diet, what would be a good percent of protein?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah. And so it's interesting because most clinicians and practical nutritionists, it is all about the ANDR, right? Which is that acceptable for nutrient distribution range. Unfortunately, scientifically, we don't really have evidence to use the AMDR, but we do from a translation piece, right? So most people want to know their macros, their percentages. And the research out there, it's about 25. I'd say somewhere between 20 and 30 percent of your daily intake is protein, is what's needed, again, during that weight loss or weight maintenance phases that you have.

James Hill:

Okay.

Holly Wyatt:

We deal with individuals and we have state-of-slimmers. And a big part of our first book was protein at every single meal. And so I like to think of it in grams of protein. Do you have any numbers like for a single meal how many grams of protein might be helpful?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah. And so that, of course, you have, depending on the population of interest and whatnot, but pretty consistent evidence in terms of the range per meal is about 24 to 30 grams of protein. There's some studies. If you're talking about athletes, could be a little bit more, older individuals. But if we're really just talking about satiety or eating behavior or that weight management piece, and you go back and look at all those trials, it's about 25 to 30 or 24 to 30 grams of protein, high quality. And I know we'll probably end up having that discussion as well per eating occasion. And then I always think practically most people don't know grams.

If I were talking to my family, like, well, what does that look like? And so you think about ounces, it gets tricky because it depends on the protein source. But if you're thinking about a meat, it's about four ounces raw, about three and a half ounces would be at that amount. But we don't eat in isolation. And that's not something I ever recommend. And it's mixing and matching your protein foods, right? And so even having less than that and having maybe a glass of milk that's higher in protein or Greek yogurt or granola, or having nuts, those things. Legumes, beans, and lentils, right? And so it's been, I think, at least from a research world, this fight of animal and plant-based proteins. And I think we can play in the same space together. There's value in animal source proteins. And we can have that discussion, which I think is important. But I do think it's the plant-based proteins that are also part of your diet. It's mixing and matching to get at that 24 to 30 grams per eating occasion.

Holly Wyatt:

So I like that, Jim, because that's the number. That's the number we pick. So we did good.

James Hill:

That's why we picked it, because we knew Heather was going to say this.

Holly Wyatt:

Well, yeah, we're just really smart, Jim. I mean, come on.

James Hill:

But just to point out, too, that's about 120 calories if you look at 30 grams. So if you're thinking, you know, there's so many ways to think of grams per kilogram, total grams, percentage, calories. But 30 grams are about 120 calories.

Heather Leidy:

I always love showing pictures because I do a lot of adolescent studies with breakfast skippers and most will say there's no way they can eat that much protein in the morning. And you show a picture of the burrito and in the U.S. I'm like, that looks like a typical burrito or a typical quesadilla. And so with some strategy, it's fairly easy. It's just most people, I'm not trying to head towards the timing component, but I think breakfast is a bigger challenge.

James Hill:

That's what I was going to follow up on. Is there a better time to get protein in your day?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, and I would say for satiety and some of the weight management work that we've done and some others, it is that breakfast occasion seems to set the day off well, whether you're talking about metabolism or satiety or even there's a lot of some cognitive function data too. It's just having a high quality breakfast in the morning can really promote that. Having 24 to 30 grams in the morning, I think, is a daunting task unless you're mindful of it, right? And so we do a lot of work in adolescence, but then we also have to counsel and recommend these to parents. And so there are ways of doing it, right? Breakfast casseroles or burritos that you can heat up in the toaster oven or the microwave or the grab and goes with Greek yogurt. And so it's manageable. It's just I think it's on people's radar. But then when you wake up and you have 15 minutes to get out the door, particularly for teens, it's hard to figure out how do you make that work.

Holly Wyatt:

So one thing we've been talking about is in our new book that's coming out, our appetite reset meal, which is your first meal of the day. It has protein in it. It has fiber. We've kind of set some parameters. And it's like having a couple of those already planned out, you know, a thought ahead. So, yeah, when you get up and you have 15 minutes, no one wants to be adding up the grams of protein and how much fiber. But if you've thought ahead and you know here's three options for me, I'm going to start my day with one of these because it sets the tone for my day in terms of satiety and how well I can then think about food. And the food noise is such a big deal too, right? So that is, people are kind of liking that. I always say also think about it like a functional food, kind of like a medication, right? People will take a supplement or take a pill to control their appetite. Well, okay, this might not be the best meal you've ever put in your mouth, maybe, but if it serves a purpose... You know, we can start thinking of it a little differently. So that is great.

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, I would say breakfast is very tasty, even with the protein that we're included, because I think a lot of times when you go out at a restaurant for breakfast, and you like protein, you get sometimes way more than you actually need. So I don't think it's as much of a taste. It is just the convenience and the mindfulness of, okay, I'm going to have to do something in the morning to get it ready before I go.

Holly Wyatt:

Yeah, I'm controlling fat sometimes and calories too. So maybe there's a little caveat in there.

James Hill:

So, Holly, so far we're two for two with Heather, the high protein and the high protein for breakfast. So, so far she's doing great, right?

Heather Leidy:

You're cheating, Jim. You know my work.

James Hill:

But Heather, you and I have both, through our careers, worked with the food industry. What's the opportunities there for high protein breakfast products? Do you see that as maybe an opportunity where the food industry could innovate?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, I would say that the majority are already there. And so when you start looking and I go down the cereal aisle every time I am at our grocery store, just because I'm curious and it's amazing how many protein centric cereals are out there. And of course, I buy them. I taste them like, wow, that needs some improvement. But it is an emphasis that I think that most food industries have. One, it's for desire. Like most consumers are seeking that in focus groups. Typically, it is protein and fiber. So how do you pair those together? And that morning meal is what's lacking. I'm also a strongman powerlifter or retired, but that was always a focus area for us. And you walk around with protein shakes that are fine for certain people, but to me, I don't actually like the taste of them. And so there's so many different protein shakes on the market that people gravitate to in the morning and they can be effective for weight management. I think, Jim, you have many studies. Many of us have those meal replacement shakes included as part of healthy dietary patterns. But some of the work that we've done really does suggest that eating your food is optimal in terms of that satiety.

James Hill:

I agree. And Holly spends a lot more time in the grocery store than I do. But she's constantly bringing in these products for me to try. Here, try this. Try this. High protein. And I have to say, some of them are pretty darn good. Some of them taste like cardboard, but I think they're getting better at providing these high-protein products that actually taste good.

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, and I just mentioned cereals just because I think that's the newer one out there. But then there's the high-protein pancakes, and then you go into the Greek yogurt section, and there's adding more protein. And so almost everything that you see on the market has a higher protein option. I would imagine it's based on consumer desire, but then also some of the findings that have come out as a result of that.

Holly Wyatt:

You alluded to this a little bit earlier, but I want to kind of go back to it. Is there a difference in animal versus plant protein in terms of satiety? Is one better than the other? And then also getting up to a certain amount. I know we want to eat our food, but adding a little supplement, you know, there's so many protein powders now. Is that a good thing or not? Does where the protein comes from matter in terms of satiety?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah. When I give a talk now, I have a Venn diagram of sorts where it has all these different protein-related factors in terms of does it matter, how does it matter? And the reason I bring that up is to your point, all of those factors matter. And so I would say the amount of protein seems to trump everything with satiety. If you have that amount that I'd mentioned, even the quality doesn't seem to be as critical as just the amount. But then really close second is the form of the protein. And I say that because we've done a number of different isolated protein studies in shake form. And even up to 40, 50 grams of protein, when you're drinking that protein and you compare it to a carbohydrate control or even water, you don't get a satiety effect. It almost looks like it's carbohydrates.

Heather Leidy:

And so I wonder, because I'm a physiologist and I know what should be happening, but because it's a liquid and it's going through your GI tract really fast, you don't get the satiety effect. You don't get the rewarding effect, the palatability, the mouthfeel isn't there. And so to me, food form is really close with that. There's probably some other pieces. And then I think the quality of the protein is in there, but I don't think it plays as big of a role for weight management or satiety than what we thought. I mean, most of the Most studies we've done, one may come to the top on occasion, but again, it's embedded by, was that a shake study? Was that a pudding study? A Greek yogurt study? Was it a whole food, right? And so there's very differences there. And I think most of us, when we think of meals, we mix and match our proteins. And I just don't think for satiety that plant versus animal is, there doesn't seem to be a significant difference with that. I think for skeletal muscle protein synthesis, which I know you'll have a discussion with other experts on that. I think there's where you see some differences there. We've just published a study that look at specific amino acids in protein to see, are there certain amino acids that drive satiety? And we do see that. But again, all proteins have all amino acids. It's just we really want to target those essential amino acids and they are higher in animal source proteins.

Holly Wyatt:

Great information. It's kind of like physical activity. Volume is the most important thing. And then you get into some nuances about intensity and maybe time of day, but the big thing is the volume. But I'm like that. When I drink my protein, it does not have the same effect. And I just didn't know if I was different, but it sounds like that goes right with what you've found in your data.

James Hill:

Okay. I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about the new GLP-1-based meds. Everywhere I see, it's funny, you see recommendations for what to eat on these meds. And I think we have very little science to back it up, but that doesn't stop people from giving recommendations. But one of the recommendations is more protein. What do we know about protein in people that are losing weight on their GLP-1 meds?

Heather Leidy:

Hardly anything when it comes to dietary protein. And I'm pausing because I thought the question was going to be more, what do we know about protein in different situations with weight loss whether it's energy restriction…

James Hill:

We can go there. We want to go there too.

Heather Leidy:

Or like bariatric surgery. So there's enough of those other studies that you can compare. But you're right. What we know about GLP-1s right now is people successfully lose weight, a substantial amount of weight, but they also are losing lean mass or muscle in essence. And so that's been a point of concern for most people. And whether that amount is different than just energy restriction, I think we're still trying to figure that out.

James Hill:

Exactly.

Heather Leidy:

But at the end of the day, the goal would be you never really want to lose your lean mass or muscle, particularly as you age, right? Because I think aging is where you really want to try to keep that. And so we do know from studies that are not related to GLP-1 that protein has that effect, right? We know pretty consistently that protein can preserve as much lean muscle as it can, unlike any other macronutrient or any other dietary pattern, right? Having more protein does lead to more lean mass preservation. And so I think that's why a lot of companies are coming out saying it is all about we need to have more protein. But then as a nutritionist, and I think being on the guidelines really showed me it, because I'm a protein researcher, right? It caused me to think there's far more things about a protein rich food than just protein, right? All the other micronutrients that come along with that: vitamin B12, B6, zinc, phosphorus, calcium, all of those things. And when you look at individuals that are on GLP-1s, the very few studies that I can count on my hands that actually quantify food intake, it's a pretty significant reduction in all food intake in general.

James Hill:

Exactly.

Heather Leidy:

Even though they're striving to eat more healthier foods. And there's one study that shows that individuals do try to eat more protein. There's just not a lot of food in general. And so we worry about micronutrient deficiencies along with protein. And so I think this idea of promoting protein-rich foods during GLP-1 is critical for those things. It is about lean mass, then also all the other ramifications of when you're micronutrient deficient.

James Hill:

That totally makes sense. And I think we're still learning about the healthy lifestyle with the GLP-1 meds. And, you know, for the first time, we've heard about nutrient deficiencies in these people, which is kind of ironic. But the meds themselves are so powerful at reducing food intake in a way we don't need protein to do that. But there's some other things you're saying that it can do and maybe why you should try to increase your protein if you're on the meds.

Heather Leidy:

Yeah. And I don't know if you have traveled enough that if I'm going to give a talk somewhere, I usually just pull up my laptop on my airplane and go over my slides and they'll see GLP-1 because I look at endogenous or secreted GLP-1 naturally. And right away it starts a conversation. And I've been at 100% that somebody beside me has been on one of the GLP-1 medications and you just start talking to them. And as a scientist, you know, it's all about like quantifying data, but then I realized like these anecdotal comments from real patients, they feel really tired and they just don't have a desire to eat. They forget to eat. And it is this interesting thing, the more that you talk to them and I'm like, okay, well, I cannot recommend four ounces of lean meat, any point along the day because they're… I mean, I can, but I don't think they're going to eat that amount of protein. So then we have to think, okay, are there certain ones that are more protein dense?

There are certain types of proteins that you should have. And a lot of times that I'll tell them is, well, what about a protein shake, right? Because again, that's the way that you can get protein for the things that you need, but it's not overly satiating. Usually they're smaller. And so that's something that they can have. The problem with a lot of the shakes is they don't have the rest of the micronutrients that whole protein foods do. So it's a challenge, right? I think step one is figuring out, honestly, for GLP-1 users, what are they willing to consume even with recommendations, right? So if we say, this is why it's so important, how much can they like physically eat without feeling nauseous or feeling like I just don't have a desire to eat the rest of that?

Holly Wyatt:

Yeah, it's interesting. It almost swaps. It's like, if you're not on the GLP-1s, you wanna have the protein in a meal. And I would say a big volume. For me, I'm a volume eater to help with satiety. So you want to have the whole foods and the whole food with the protein and in volume. And then if you're on the GLP-1s, you kind of want to reverse that and maybe do it in a liquid form or in the small form to get as much in as you can in the smallest amount possible. What do you think about when people stop the GLP-1s? We know that they can stay on them forever. That's how the medications can work. But we also know that a lot of people are not staying on the medications. Any thoughts about the role of protein after you've lost some weight and now you're trying to go off the medication for whatever reason?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on that. Because again, that's something that's not really explored well. We don't know anything really about eating behavior protein in the GLP-1 space. But 100% to your point, I think you go back to the weight maintenance studies that exist, right? Whether it's bariatric, depending on the bariatric surgery, right? Some of them, they can end up having the surgery reversed, but a lot of it is energy restriction and then weight maintenance, right? And so when you look at those trials, we do see that having more protein to try to prevent weight regain is a really important part. What we don't know in this group, because this idea of food noise or the food environment around us, can protein do anything in that group where you're up against a fairly significant craving, right? And so I've never been on GLP-1s, but when you talk to individuals, when you come off of them, if it's not titrated down, which I think is something that needs to be examined further. Just stopping medication, I think, is not really going to be advantageous. So if you can titrate it down, that may be. And then start including more protein. I think that at this point, protein and fiber recommendations are a really key part. But I know Jim always talks about physical activity, and I'm 100% on board, like, championing that. In terms of individuals have lost weight, they've lost muscle, and generally they want to be more active because they're at a healthier weight. But then they don't have as much lean mass. And so I think protein is vital. But we do know from the research protein and resistance training or protein and resistance training in cardiovascular is critical. If you remove one or the other, it's just not as effective for weight maintenance. And so I think that's where we really need to be. And I think the motivation to move more is going to be higher in that group because they do feel better, they've lost weight, and they can be more physically active. And so I think that's really where. But I think it has to be more than just go be active, just go eat some more protein, right? I think we have to kind of put some numbers on it for people to set their goals, right? Because just saying it, I think that's the problem with most physicians. They tell them to be more whatever, but then it needs to be something that's a bit more tangible. And the evidence just isn't there to show it with GLP-1s, but we know with everything else that that's really where you need to be.

Holly Wyatt:

I think we can make some very educated guesses, like you said, based on bariatric surgery, based on other weight loss maintenance, what that range probably looks like, at least as a place to start and then as more data comes out, adjust it per se. I want to ask one more question. This is a selfish question, but I get questions about this all the time. When to eat the protein? Does it matter if you front load it, eat it in the last meal of the day, the first meal of the day? Do you need to spread it out through the day? Is there any data on that specifically? I know you're a big breakfast person so I'm guessing there's a little bit about breakfast. But if I just put all my protein in breakfast and didn't eat it the rest of the day, would that be good?

Heather Leidy:

There's a number of distribution studies out there, whether you should evenly distribute the amount that we talked about or whether it's okay to skew it. So have more at certain times. I think what we consistently know is having it at dinner is not optimal for a lot of reasons. We're talking about satiety today. So the work that we've done really does show that having it in the dinner meal because you haven't had a lot throughout the day. You don't really have that time to be mindful of your hunger and fullness cues. And so we started doing breakfast research because of some of those studies. And then we do see pretty consistently having that morning meal, whether it's metabolic, even with some of the protein synthesis work and weight management is a key timing area. Now, what does that look like? Is it I have to eat immediately when I wake up, an hour after I wake up, two or three hours? We don't know. I mean, that's the part that, can I have half in the morning and then maybe another half midday? There's just a lot that we don't know, but consistently, and Jim, you know this too, same thing with you, Holly, is that bigger breakfast meals have been favorable for weight maintenance and even some weight loss. And so I think targeting that with protein in the morning is something that will be consistently recommended.

Heather Leidy:

Evenly distributing at this point, it's controversial. Most of the evidence is like it doesn't necessarily matter. Stu Phillips has some work in the mindset of maybe you just have to get that one meal in that's meeting that like 24 to 30 grams and the rest might be okay. So from a practical standpoint, we just go back to having somebody eat one meal as a goal that's higher in protein. It does seem to be there's a lot more compliance that we show than trying to mess up everybody's diets. Right? Like throughout the day, it's like starting with that. And then we also start thinking about, well, those protein snacks can be helpful if you do have food cravings in the afternoon. And so I am all about changing or having a healthy dietary pattern. But sometimes it's like, well, is there certain times that you can start with? And I think breakfast is one of those ones where let's start there because that's the one that can provide a lot of those micronutrients, can provide protein and kind of set the day off.

Holly Wyatt:

We are hitting these out of the ballpark, Jim, because we have our appetite reset meal in the morning.

James Hill:

We're right, Holly. Who knew that we were right?

Holly Wyatt:

Right. We have this appetite reset meal and then we have our satiety snacks. I mean, that's, my goodness. How did we do this?

James Hill:

We are really smart. Who knew? You want to do some listener questions, Holly?

Holly Wyatt:

Yeah. Yeah. You know I do. We got some good ones, too. You go ahead and start this time.

James Hill:

All right. Here's one, Heather. Should I be worried about kidney health if I eat too much protein? Can you overdo it with protein?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, get asked this all the time. And so I don't want to just talk about kidney function, but that's one of the ones that comes to mind. Most people, they'll also say liver and then bone. That if you eat protein, it leaches the calcium out of your bones, right? And so we'll hear people say that all the time. And so for those three, I can say consistently with the evidence that 1.2 to 1.6 grams of protein that we are recommending highly safe across all life stages. Health conditions, as we know, with individuals with renal and kidney failure patients, that's a challenge. It's concerning. And I'm not an expert in that field, so I'll not punt that. But I know Stu Phillips has done a lot of work in that space. When you look at the systematic reviews and analysis, that amount that we're advocating is very safe and effective. Not that we think that people should even eat more than that, but for athletes, most of the recommendations with ACSM, those guidelines are about 2.3. And even at that amount of protein, very safe for overall health and well-being. And when you look at the outcomes, your kidneys are functioning the way they should. Some of these, the processes increase, but it's physiological, right? We call it homeostasis, right? And it adapts and adapts back. And I think the benefits of having more protein in that range far outseeds what does because your body is responding accordingly.

James Hill:

So basically, for most of our listeners, it's likely that they aren't going to experience any downside of trying to increase their protein intake.

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, I would say definitely individuals that are healthy or have some chronic disease risks, it's a safe and effective quantity to consume, that 1.2 to 1.6.

Holly Wyatt:

Right. If you have a kidney disease, if you're known kidney disease or kidney insufficiency or, you know, you're being followed for that, then you do have your own special protein recommendations. But most people know that. Yeah.

Heather Leidy:

But even that's tricky because they actually do that “population needs more protein.” So it's always hard. But I mean, we get asked all the time and there just isn't evidence that suggests that the quantities that we know can promote health are having any detrimental effects on any of those things.

Holly Wyatt:

I totally agree. And the longer we kind of go into these high-protein diets, I think if there had been a signal, we would start to see it and we haven't. We have not.

James Hill:

Right.

Holly Wyatt:

And people have been eating high-protein diets and we're not seeing them going to kidney failure or any signal out there. So I feel better the longer we go on that question. All right. So a couple of these we've touched on, but so we can do rapid fire, but I think it's important they want to get an answer to their question. I've heard protein helps with fullness, but I'm still snacking all day. Am I doing something wrong? So I eat some protein and I can't tell I ate it. Is there some trick that maybe they're not thinking about or doing they should do differently?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah. One of the things I would say is it depends on the type of protein that they're consuming and then when. And so the reason I bring that up is because our breakfast studies pretty consistently show that if you have a higher protein breakfast that's whole foods, it does prevent snacking on unhealthy foods later in the day. And we've replicated that. And so I always then ask, well, what is it that you're eating? What's the quantity? And obviously, even with whatever you're eating, if it's just protein, you need to have other foods with it. Protein and fiber, having fruits and vegetables together. I know everybody preaches that, but I mean, it's having those whole food meals that should provide that. And then along that to that point, we've done brain study, fMRI brain imaging studies to look at food cravings and food reward. And we do show too that protein can be rewarding to the point that it can prevent high fat, high savory food cravings later in the day. So again, it goes back to this idea of breakfast. And so to that point, that question is, is I would just ask, what are you eating? When are you eating it? Not to say that, I mean, we still have cravings. A lot of it is, it's identifying why. Why am I hungry? Why am I craving this? For most of us, we're bored or stressed or bored and stressed. And sometimes it's like, it's a good vice that we have that it's like it's comforting food. And that's why we have those cravings. Sometimes it's just the fact that we always snack at a certain time of day.

Holly Wyatt:

Habit. Yeah. This is what I do. I need a new habit. Yeah.

Heather Leidy:

Yeah.

Holly Wyatt:

Totally.

Heather Leidy:

My daughter's 18 now, so she's going to be out of the house too. But when they're little, sometimes they're snacking and you just grab whatever's left over and you put it in your mouth. I'm like, well, that was, not helpful, right? So I think it's mindfulness. It comes down to just what are your goals and then assessing. I wish we had like a text message innately that would pop up. You went to grab something, it's like, why are you eating this? And we've had this discussion, right? It's like, well, do you really want that? Do you need it? Is there a healthier option? Maybe people would ignore it.

Holly Wyatt:

Well, I think AI is coming up with that, those type prompts at the right time. I love that you've done brain imaging and shown some of this. I love that. All right. I'm going to do one that follows up on that.

James Hill:

Wait a minute. It's my turn now.

Holly Wyatt:

Oh, no, Jim. This is one of my favorite episodes because you know how I love this topic. So this one fits with that second question. I'm a busy mom and dinner is my biggest meal. Can I just load up protein at the end of the day?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, I would say not ideal. But with that said, we've done a lot of studies with families now where, okay, make a higher protein meal. And that's fine if that's what you really like. But then make them in the way that you can have them in the morning for leftovers. And a lot of times that's what people are able to do because it's a very protein-laden meal. Then it's like, okay, well, whatever you're making, it's a casserole. Can you save that? Right? Or maybe you're having breakfast for dinner and then save it for breakfast too. And a lot of moms really gravitate towards that. They like that. The point, I would say, I would always encourage people. If you can, try to have more throughout the rest of the day. But if that's just not the family occasion that you have, it's okay. But then see what you can do with the leftovers.

Holly Wyatt:

Great tip. I love that tip.

James Hill:

Can I go now?

Holly Wyatt:

Yeah, you can go.

James Hill:

Is it my turn?

Holly Wyatt:

It's your turn.

James Hill:

All right. Here's one I like because I find it particularly relevant. Does protein work differently as we age?

Heather Leidy:

Yeah, it doesn't work differently, but we need more of it as we age.

James Hill:

Ah!

Heather Leidy:

And that's simply because our body doesn't metabolize protein as effectively or efficiently when we get older. And so older adults, pretty consistently, you need about 40 grams of protein per eating occasion to get the same effect, not for satiety. This is more about that muscle protein synthesis work, that you do need more for that piece. The challenges with older individuals is that they actually find protein very satiating or just food in general. It's the same but I think it's magnified and so having older individuals eat the amount of of protein that we advocate in whole foods is very difficult if not impossible. And so again that's another point of going back to those meal replacement shakes simply because they're less satiating but you're getting the protein, calcium, everything else that they need as they're aging and they don't feel as full. And I can tell you like with my mom's a 78 and is not eating well as they get older. And so for me I've encouraged her to to drink the ultra-filtered ultra-processed milk because it's a higher protein because she doesn't like shakes. So some people do and they don't, it's like, well, what about milk or something like that? And so she'll have it at the beginning the end of the day. And so I think it's for older individuals is working with them. It is with everybody but I think older folks it's trying to figure out, well, what do you like? What are you willing to consume? And then capitalize on that. And it's not just for older individuals, but we do know that protein need is really high in that group.

James Hill:

Holly, you better bring me some more of those high protein products in. I'm going to have to up my game a little bit, I think.

Holly Wyatt:

Yeah, I've got some good ones I've been trying out. I think we're going to see some new products that are going to help us a little bit.

James Hill:

All right, Holly, you know what time it is?

Holly Wyatt:

I do, Jim. Vulnerability time. Get ready, Heather. You've been doing this a while. This is obviously your passion. So how is your personal view of protein and how it relates to hunger satiety, how has it evolved over time?

Heather Leidy:

I would say the biggest change for me was being not the quote young and dumb, right? Getting into research, seeing protein's effects. I mean, I was coming at it from a sports nutrition standpoint first and then looked at satiety and weight management. I always thought protein was the be-all end-all. And the recommendation would be, yeah, just have the protein and everything else to take care of itself. And then, like I said, we've done those series of studies. And I'm like, oh. So it's one part. It's one part of the puzzle.

Heather Leidy:

And so for me now, I think that's the first piece is just changing and understanding you need more. Jim and I have been, we never bantered in a opposite manner with physical activity. But for me, it's really hard to do interventions that have both and try to tease out the effects. And so I just went down the protein nutrition part, but it does come back to that physical activity is another piece that I think that you have to have other strategies to make protein work the way it could optimally work. And then the second piece is knowing that whole protein foods have a lot more other stuff than just protein. It's the micronutrients for me. It was an aha moment. I'm like, oh, you need it for a lot more reasons other than just protein. It's protein dense, but it does supply those other things too. And we need to be mindful of that, particularly in those sensitive life stages, right? Older individuals and even adolescents with really poor diet. I think those pieces or like even perimenopausal, right? That's that transition where those diets, I think they need to have more of a focus and need to have a very specific recommendation to improve their health and well-being.

James Hill:

Okay, last question, Heather. How has your own research influenced your own lifestyle?

Heather Leidy:

Oh, so it's funny. I always joke that I'm not an overly intelligent person. I just work hard and have ideas. And so for me, it's flipped. So I always had an idea and then I tested it with the science. So it was the other way around for me. I used to be a school teacher and I would see problems with teens or parents and or even then I got into strength training. And so for me, it was always a fundamental question that I would have. And if the evidence wasn't there in the science, I would go to the science, right? I'd go to PubMed and search. And if the evidence wasn't there, I'm like, oh, I need to do a study to test that. Then move and pivot depending on the findings. So I always started there. But in terms of my research, it's really it is highlighting that breakfast is that really unique opportunity. That to me is it shaped a lot of even how my family eats, how we eat. But it started with me just saying, “We don't know. Let's go find. Oh, there isn't a study. Let's implement it.” So I like to think our research is pretty practical. We do mechanisms, of course, too. But I mean, you want to be able to translate your evidence that people can follow and that it's useful and helpful. And so I always started it that way.

James Hill:

All right, Holly, shall we sum up here? I think we've heard a lot about the benefits of higher protein intake. And one of the things that stood out to me is this importance maybe of getting a good protein at breakfast, getting 30 grams of protein at breakfast to start the day. If you're trying to manage your weight, protein can help a little bit in reducing hunger, increasing satiety. Seems to help with weight management and with preventing loss of lean body mass or muscle mass. So there are a lot of reasons to think about upping your protein intake. There are a lot of new products on the market that make it easier to do there. And then the last point, as you age, you're going to need more protein.

Holly Wyatt:

Good job, Jim. I think you hit all the big points.

James Hill:

Last for you, Heather, what's one thing our listeners can do to up their protein intake? One small step they could take.

Heather Leidy:

Eat something that has protein in it for breakfast.

James Hill:

Okay.

Heather Leidy:

Because I would say a lot of consumers don’t eat breakfast at all. So eat something that has protein, even an egg, a serving of Greek yogurt, a glass of milk, something to start there.

James Hill:

Love it.

Holly Wyatt:

Very good.

James Hill:

Well, thanks, Heather. This has been great. We've learned so much about protein. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Send us questions. Send us ideas for topics that you would like us to take on. And we'll see you next time on Weight Loss And.

Holly Wyatt:

Bye, everybody.

James Hill:

And that's a wrap for today's episode of Weight Loss And. We hope you enjoy diving into the world of weight loss with us.

Holly Wyatt:

If you want to stay connected and continue exploring the “Ands” of weight loss, be sure to follow our podcast on your favorite platform.

James Hill:

We'd also love to hear from you. Share your thoughts, questions, or topic suggestions by reaching out at [weightlossand.com](http://weightlossand.com/). Your feedback helps us tailor future episodes to your needs.

Holly Wyatt:

And remember, the journey doesn't end here. Keep applying the knowledge and strategies you've learned and embrace the power of the “And” in your own weight loss journey.